That isn’t what I said but you’re free to take it that way if you prefer.

And there are similarities and we can equally pretend to not understand them as well.

So a musician who doesn’t fully and directly control all the sounds in their music is not an artist? Many big artists would fall short of your definition in that someone who isn’t them is controlling the lyrics, music production, final mix and so on. The artists on the label would be a massive farce as such and in actuality the producer is maybe the truest version of an actual producer.

I still don’t see the difference if someone has an idea in their mind and they are able to create that idea in the world with tool A vs tool B where tool A is a team of individuals, sound engineers, musicians, programmers and so on and tool B is a machine that can equally perform those tasks to create someone’s vision. The upside is that far more people have the capacity to exercise their creative will than before.

I do want to take time to state I am aware of the copyright issues in training some models and it is a very valid argument against certain companies and the use of certain models.

I also never said there’s no connection. Algorithms aren’t just a famous democratic politician winding and grinding to a song.

I am being pedantic although for sure some artists truly do have a very deep understanding of computers and electronic hardware for music production. The line is what I’m exploring. I think for instance with an NN one can most definitely have a vision, give a beatbox or musical rendition and continually edit it to their ultimate desire of what they heard in their mind. I don’t see the lack of creativity in that use case although putting “make a rock song” in the prompt and hitting GO and that’s it is definitely uninspired. That said that’s been a debate for a long time already with electronic music and genres such as mashups or styles of music which are essentially built from nothing but samples. For decades already there’s been artists mired in rumors they can’t sing, play any instrument or write music aka they’re just a face lip syncing or getting fully autotuned live.

That’s all to say that I’m not sure what you’re saying can be applied across the board without any concern for particular use cases. I understand what you’re getting at and it depends if the circumstance on hand is that or isn’t, NN’s or not.

Not a bot although a cookie sounds nice, depends what kind.

Edit: dang can’t even say I’m not a bot without getting downvoted. Anyways still wondering about that cookie

So the difference is just the understanding then? So if for instance it’s a small NN and the individual does understand the input output relationship then it’s art. To what level do you prefer people who use computers and electronics to understand the algorithms and electronics they are using? Like one could have a very fundamental understanding of the tools they are using to generate sounds or essentially no understanding whatsoever beyond button click makes computer / circuit go brrrrrrrrr. Like for instance I could design my own synthesizer and solder it or program a synth from scratch but I’m not sure all people who use electronics to generate sound have that level of understanding of the input output relationship. Like us someone who uses an electric piano but has absolutely no clue how the instrument operates in producing sound still an artist?

Never claimed that voice was produced using NN or other algorithms typically associated with AI.

Yeah you haven’t made any statements but I think we are both aware of the sentiments or feelings of people on the subject. Personally wherever there are strong feelings or clashing perspectives there’s a source of exploration and artistic creation.

Like for instance if someone created their own sample database, designed their own NN, trained it, and prompted it would that be enough human involvement or maybe if they had it generate then samples to be fed into a vocaloid then it would be enough or maybe for some that’s still not valid music.

I’m noticing this seems to be the heart of the issue, that is the level of human involvement. If that indeed is the issue then it would be interesting to explore where the line is just from an artistic endeavour. How much human interaction or effort is enough. If for instance someone recorded all their own training data, designed their own NN, trained it, and prompted it would that be enough or not? I also get the sense that part of the issue is the underlying algorithm, that is anything involving NN is bad regardless of the circumstance.

I think you’re saying. It’s the level of human involvement that determines if it’s good or bad? If so it would be interesting to explore exactly where the cutoff is.

It is different as in there isn’t a model or a neural network but both take real audio and algorithmically produce synthetic audio. It just seems interesting to determine one algorithm is good and another algorithm is bad.

China has been pretty direct about it with their east to west project. So far I really haven’t heard anyone in China complaining but maybe that’s because of their strict media control.

I wonder if this applies to Hatsune Miku or not and if not then why. Most people aren’t up in arms about Hatsune Miku but is that just because they created her before there was a lot of rage about computer generated voices and personas?

Lol just watched a video on it yesterday.

Don’t be so sirius

Not where I live. Few people even have smartphones and there’s no garbage trucks.

I mean we can install data sensing butt plugs into every last citizen and get even more data and even more security.

Yes and no. Like towns have town halls where such issues are voted on or debated. There are most definitely actions individuals and more importantly communities can take to stop the spread of distributed surveillance. There are already laws about filming in private locations aka it’s currently illegal for someone to be filming in a public restroom or in your house or in a business they don’t own.

Yeah it’s a more jarring and immediate concern than the amorphous state level data collection and profiling concern of distributed systems although both boil down to privacy concerns. Like its one thing to have a dash cam in your car or a household security camera or even for a business to have internal and external security cameras it’s another thing all together for the state to have a distributed camera network accurately tracking everything you’re doing or for an Individual to be illegally recording in private locations to make compromising content.