The expectations the feminists have, are a part of the patriarchy, is what I’m guessing they’re trying to say, so it’s ultimately still the fault of broader patriarchy and it’s standards. I guess what you’re effectively saying is that Feminists are affected by patriarchy and it’s standards too I guess, which is obvious given they’re human and most humans aren’t perfect.
Edit Addendum: I also think why it’s hard sometimes for some feminists to acknowledge the problems men face, under the standards that the social system and hierarchy that patriarchy sets and is, is that men often play such a big role in the preservation and continuation of patriarchy, that the idea of even talking about or blaming some women(the gender which has faced the biggest brunt of the abuse from patriarchy) for also upholding the system of patriarchy, gets hard. It feels almost as if you were victim blaming or punching down, even though such aspects of patriarchy(that is the idea of women’s role in upholding the continuation of it) must be addressed.
The expectations the feminists have, are a part of the patriarchy, is what I’m guessing they’re trying to say, so it’s ultimately still the fault of broader patriarchy and it’s standards.
I mean dude think about it. You are almost literally saying that any bad things feminists do are because of the patriarchy. Any failings in feminist theory is because of patriarchy. Any lack of concern for men, any failure to worry about the lack of concern for men, it’s all patriarchy.
Does that really ring true to you? I mean, if patriarchy is such a nebulous thing that it’s subconsciously affecting the very things that feminists choose to worry about…then we should be able to lay all of feminism’s successes at the feet of patriarchy too, right? Women’s sufferage? Patriarchy. Freedom of choice? Patriarchy. Women in the workplace? Patriarchy. You may think it was feminism, but clearly the invisible guiding hand of patriarchy is influencing feminists.
Or is it only patriarchy when it’s something bad?
Look, I’m not saying there’s no such thing as patriarchy. Or misogyny. I absolutely believe that there are systemic injustices in the world perpetrated against women en masse. I also believe that our historically patriarchal society has caused a level of male-centric bias in our world.
I object to the complete and total failure of feminism to admit to any negative effects whatsoever. Feminism is not self-reflective and therefore can never be egalitarian. It will always be a struggle for one group against another.
I think it does ring true. I think you can also say that, in a way, feminism successes do come from patriarchy, that is to say-
It is built upon patriarchy, through the analysis, critique and solutions offered by feminists to it.
What you are critiquing is the hypocrisy and personal individual failings of feminists, which is valid, but is another problem entirely I feel.
Perhaps you are saying these hypocrises and personal individual failings affect alot more feminists than feminists themselves would like to admit? Or perhaps that these hypocrises and personal individual failings have poisoned feminism and it’s touted ideals? That feminists who fail in these ways affect the ideology of feminism and that THIS feminism, the “feminism of hypocrites” is what now pervades majority feminist thought?
No, I’m saying that of the list of things feminists are concerned about - wage gap, abortion access, burden of child rearing, intersectional issues - no where on that list is any bad things feminists do. I’m not saying it’s systemic (I do happen to believe that, but it’s irrelevant at the moment), I’m just saying it happens enough that feminism should be worried about it, at least a little. That lack of concern is damning.
It’s like having one abusive cop in a department. Ok, there’s one bad cop and 99 good ones, but the 99 good ones are not denouncing him. They are protecting him. So in a way, you have 100 bad cops. If the 99 cops were denouncing him, refusing to work with him, petitioning the police union to disown him, etc…that would be fine. But they never do.
Individual women being shitty is individual women being shitty. Feminism refusing to admit it has a problem in its ranks is feminism being shitty.
If a woman tells a man to having emotions isn’t manly then they’re not acting as a feminist. That, by definition, is an idea that comes to us from the religious, moral, and civic tradition that produced the modern patriarchy. The people, men and women, who say and do things that reflect and maintain those ideas are failing the ideals of feminism.
To use an analogy, North Korea calls itself a democracy. They do not elect a leader. That doesn’t mean democracy has failed, just that this country is doing anti democratic things.
Great! That’s a great outlook. Now please start saying those things without a guy like me having to browbeat you into it first. And start saying them to the women who are failing feminism, not to us. If feminism would reject and excise these women, and focus on teaching women to be better (not exclusively focusing on that! Just make it part of the program) then everything I’ve been talking about would be a nothingburger.
Get me over the finish line then.
He/she already tried.
All I see is “everything bad is patriarchy, everything good is feminism” and a steadfast avoidance of the specific issue I brought up.
The expectations the feminists have, are a part of the patriarchy, is what I’m guessing they’re trying to say, so it’s ultimately still the fault of broader patriarchy and it’s standards. I guess what you’re effectively saying is that Feminists are affected by patriarchy and it’s standards too I guess, which is obvious given they’re human and most humans aren’t perfect.
Edit Addendum: I also think why it’s hard sometimes for some feminists to acknowledge the problems men face, under the standards that the social system and hierarchy that patriarchy sets and is, is that men often play such a big role in the preservation and continuation of patriarchy, that the idea of even talking about or blaming some women(the gender which has faced the biggest brunt of the abuse from patriarchy) for also upholding the system of patriarchy, gets hard. It feels almost as if you were victim blaming or punching down, even though such aspects of patriarchy(that is the idea of women’s role in upholding the continuation of it) must be addressed.
I mean dude think about it. You are almost literally saying that any bad things feminists do are because of the patriarchy. Any failings in feminist theory is because of patriarchy. Any lack of concern for men, any failure to worry about the lack of concern for men, it’s all patriarchy.
Does that really ring true to you? I mean, if patriarchy is such a nebulous thing that it’s subconsciously affecting the very things that feminists choose to worry about…then we should be able to lay all of feminism’s successes at the feet of patriarchy too, right? Women’s sufferage? Patriarchy. Freedom of choice? Patriarchy. Women in the workplace? Patriarchy. You may think it was feminism, but clearly the invisible guiding hand of patriarchy is influencing feminists.
Or is it only patriarchy when it’s something bad?
Look, I’m not saying there’s no such thing as patriarchy. Or misogyny. I absolutely believe that there are systemic injustices in the world perpetrated against women en masse. I also believe that our historically patriarchal society has caused a level of male-centric bias in our world.
I object to the complete and total failure of feminism to admit to any negative effects whatsoever. Feminism is not self-reflective and therefore can never be egalitarian. It will always be a struggle for one group against another.
I think it does ring true. I think you can also say that, in a way, feminism successes do come from patriarchy, that is to say-
It is built upon patriarchy, through the analysis, critique and solutions offered by feminists to it.
What you are critiquing is the hypocrisy and personal individual failings of feminists, which is valid, but is another problem entirely I feel.
Perhaps you are saying these hypocrises and personal individual failings affect alot more feminists than feminists themselves would like to admit? Or perhaps that these hypocrises and personal individual failings have poisoned feminism and it’s touted ideals? That feminists who fail in these ways affect the ideology of feminism and that THIS feminism, the “feminism of hypocrites” is what now pervades majority feminist thought?
No, I’m saying that of the list of things feminists are concerned about - wage gap, abortion access, burden of child rearing, intersectional issues - no where on that list is any bad things feminists do. I’m not saying it’s systemic (I do happen to believe that, but it’s irrelevant at the moment), I’m just saying it happens enough that feminism should be worried about it, at least a little. That lack of concern is damning.
It’s like having one abusive cop in a department. Ok, there’s one bad cop and 99 good ones, but the 99 good ones are not denouncing him. They are protecting him. So in a way, you have 100 bad cops. If the 99 cops were denouncing him, refusing to work with him, petitioning the police union to disown him, etc…that would be fine. But they never do.
Individual women being shitty is individual women being shitty. Feminism refusing to admit it has a problem in its ranks is feminism being shitty.
If a woman tells a man to having emotions isn’t manly then they’re not acting as a feminist. That, by definition, is an idea that comes to us from the religious, moral, and civic tradition that produced the modern patriarchy. The people, men and women, who say and do things that reflect and maintain those ideas are failing the ideals of feminism.
To use an analogy, North Korea calls itself a democracy. They do not elect a leader. That doesn’t mean democracy has failed, just that this country is doing anti democratic things.
Great! That’s a great outlook. Now please start saying those things without a guy like me having to browbeat you into it first. And start saying them to the women who are failing feminism, not to us. If feminism would reject and excise these women, and focus on teaching women to be better (not exclusively focusing on that! Just make it part of the program) then everything I’ve been talking about would be a nothingburger.