Elections are run by the states including for federal office. They are not run by the federal government
Nor are there is no provision anywhere to cancel elections due to war. They still happened during the US Civil war
Hell even if in a hypothetical that it was just blue states that held elections, that would be enough to potentially flip the house. California and New York have enough potential and realistic house flips to change the US from red to blue
Declaring that they won’t happen just plays into Trump’s hands. It makes people more cynical and less inclined to fight back
even if in a hypothetical that it was just blue states that held elections, that would be enough to potentially flip the house. California and New York have enough potential and realistic house flips to change the US from red to blue
OK. That’s a wild thing to say. If you’re willing to say that the red states may illegally fail to hold elections can you not recognize the likelyhood that they’d stop, by force, blue states from doing the same?
Do you seriously think blue states wouldn’t fold if pressured to stop elections?
I’m not convinced that any of this will come to pass and elections will be stopped but if they want to they can and will.
That requires much more than just red states republican legislatures being complicit. That’s just a straight up military coup at that point. That’s not the scenario the earlier people were laying out
We’ve had hybrid senarios before. During Lincoln’s elections, many southern states didn’t even let him put his name on the ballot. He still won the election
Not really if it’s threatened and the dems instantly fold. A dozen or so congress members and few senate members in support of freezing elections, the threat of violence, and a continuation of what see we now. That’s about all that’s needed.
Still, though it’d argue it unlikely, military intervention cannot be ruled out
On this being a separate situation it’s not really. It’s just an expansion of your own hypothetical. In a world where red states halt elections they would also pressure blue states to do the same. Blue states would likely fold as they have to many of the more important issues recently.
I guess there’s not much to this argument at this point between us. I hope you’re right, and I would assume some resistance, but do doubt it to be significant. The courts are captured, national dems are weak, and even when talking about the power of state dems I’ve not seen much strong and resilient push back. Lastly, national dems have quite a bit of power in state politics. Don’t doubt the ability of a crab to pull down it’s fellow crab in it’s own attempt to leave the bucket.
Thanks for the conversation. Though I’m a bit more pessimistic I can see you’re atleast a reasonable person
Because they do have power if they’re willing to use it. It can slow them down. For instance,
They have subpoenas. Make republicans have to spend all their time talking about all the horrible things they’re doing to the floor. Remove all their time to do said horrible things because they’re too busy testifying
If they don’t testify, they can put people in contempt of congress which can be enforced by the Sergeant at Arms. This is something that did happen to Steve Bannon when he refuesed to testify for the Jan 6th committee. Not just a hypothetical power
Because they do have power if they’re willing to use it. It can slow them down. For instance,
Chuck Schumer had that power last week. Look how well that turned out. That’s what you’re basing your hopes on?
They have subpoenas. Make republicans have to spend all their time talking about all the horrible things they’re doing to the floor. Remove all their time to do said horrible things because they’re too busy testifying
Actually, no. Democrats have no subpoena power or ability to hold official hearings while in the minority.
If they don’t testify, they can put people in contempt of congress which can be enforced by the Sergeant at Arms. This is something that did happen to Steve Bannon when he refuesed to testify for the Jan 6th committee. Not just a hypothetical power
I wouldn’t exactly use Steve Bannon as a prime example. It took years for him to see any consequence at all, and he got a bare minimum. He got, what, 4 months? For the amount of money Bannon is making off of riding Trump’s dick, I’d sit in a jail cell for 4 months too.
And I’ll counter your argument with Jim Jordan. Ignored subpoenas. Didn’t even get so much as a censure in the house for ignoring their own subpoena, let alone any form of punishment at all. If you for half a second think a Republican-led House is going to charge a prominent, full-throated MAGA member and chair of the Judiciary Committee with contempt, order his arrest, and have him jailed for non-compliance, I have beachfront property on Mars you may be interested in.
Your rationale goes on the premise that traditional norms and laws still apply. They do not. When the people who are in charge of enforcing those laws and norms are actively telling you that they’re not going to enforce them, those laws aren’t worth the paper they’re printed on.
And the senate would not need to be involved here. All but 1 house dems did vote against it when there was a real chance to stop it (it wasn’t 100% certain that republicans had the vors in the house)
House dems are livid at Schumer. The house has been better at opposing - it’s just that their powers are much more limited while in the minority are more limited compared to the senate.
Democrats have no subpoena power or ability to hold official hearings while in the minority
The context was in flipping the house. They would be in the majority in that scenario
If you for half a second think a Republican-led House
Ok and assumming they flip the house what are they going to do? They can do all the hearings and pass out a metric fuckton of subpoenas, what makes you think anyone in this administration listens or shows up? I am pretty sure they did that the first time around, and people shook their fingers and sent very mean letters to no avail.
Whose to say Ttump then doesnt just dismiss congress? Whose gonna fucking stop him?
If they don’t testify, they can put people in contempt of congress which can be enforced by the Sergeant at Arms. This is something that did happen to Steve Bannon when he refuesed to testify for the Jan 6th committee. Not just a hypothetical power
The Sergeant at Arms is part of the house, not the executive
If Trump tries to illegally dismissing congress, they could just still meet and direct the Sergeant at Arms anyway
If they don’t testify, they can put people in contempt of congress which can be enforced by the Sergeant at Arms.
The Sergeant at Arms as I wrote. They are part of congress. They are not part of the executive branch
Under this process, the procedure for holding a person in contempt involves only the chamber concerned. Following a contempt citation, the person cited is arrested by the Sergeant-at-Arms of the House or Senate, brought to the floor of the chamber, held to answer charges by the presiding officer, and then subjected to punishment as the chamber may dictate (usually imprisonment for punishment, imprisonment for coercion, or release from the contempt citation).[18]
The sergeant at arms of the United States House of Representatives is an officer of the House with law enforcement, protocol, and administrative responsibilities. The sergeant at arms is elected at the beginning of each Congress by the membership of the House.
Trump is often a paper tiger. He quite often backs down from fights the minute someone pushes back. He’s also been rather willing to throw people under the bus
He’s not yet a dictator as much as he might be trying to make himself one. Most of his power in this moment is from people complying assuming he is. He is a lot weaker in actually getting you to do something if you resist than he wants you to believe. Don’t do his dirty work for him
It’s helpful to point out to people that following established rules doesn’t work when the people in power disregard them with impunity.
There’s not going to be a legal or political uno reverse card that will stop what’s happening. The only established mechanism that still exists to get us out of this is if the military does its duty and protects us from the domestic threat to the constitution.
But, with Trump replacing the joint chiefs and top JAG members, I’m not betting on that happening.
People need to stop living in the fantasy of, “we just have to wait it out for 2-4 years.”
Elections are run by the states including for federal office. They are not run by the federal government
Nor are there is no provision anywhere to cancel elections due to war. They still happened during the US Civil war
Hell even if in a hypothetical that it was just blue states that held elections, that would be enough to potentially flip the house. California and New York have enough potential and realistic house flips to change the US from red to blue
Declaring that they won’t happen just plays into Trump’s hands. It makes people more cynical and less inclined to fight back
This sounds like someone who doesn’t live in a red state…
I’m waiting for Missouri to just go ahead and decide that we don’t need to vote. They’ve just overturned votes we passed.
You speak sensibly.
Trump is without sense and will act without sense.
Good thing the majority of state Governors are not Republican and would not welcome interventions from a fascist federal government. Oh wait…
OK. That’s a wild thing to say. If you’re willing to say that the red states may illegally fail to hold elections can you not recognize the likelyhood that they’d stop, by force, blue states from doing the same?
Do you seriously think blue states wouldn’t fold if pressured to stop elections?
I’m not convinced that any of this will come to pass and elections will be stopped but if they want to they can and will.
That requires much more than just red states republican legislatures being complicit. That’s just a straight up military coup at that point. That’s not the scenario the earlier people were laying out
We’ve had hybrid senarios before. During Lincoln’s elections, many southern states didn’t even let him put his name on the ballot. He still won the election
Not really if it’s threatened and the dems instantly fold. A dozen or so congress members and few senate members in support of freezing elections, the threat of violence, and a continuation of what see we now. That’s about all that’s needed.
Still, though it’d argue it unlikely, military intervention cannot be ruled out
On this being a separate situation it’s not really. It’s just an expansion of your own hypothetical. In a world where red states halt elections they would also pressure blue states to do the same. Blue states would likely fold as they have to many of the more important issues recently.
Don’t conflate national dems and state dem parties. The state dems are fighting back far stronger
Hell many are defying trump straight to his face such as Maine’s governor who told him in person that they’d not comply with his anti-trans stuff
Kathy Hochul is still enforcing NYC’s congestion pricing despite Trump directly telling her to stop and threatning federal funding
And so on
I guess there’s not much to this argument at this point between us. I hope you’re right, and I would assume some resistance, but do doubt it to be significant. The courts are captured, national dems are weak, and even when talking about the power of state dems I’ve not seen much strong and resilient push back. Lastly, national dems have quite a bit of power in state politics. Don’t doubt the ability of a crab to pull down it’s fellow crab in it’s own attempt to leave the bucket.
Thanks for the conversation. Though I’m a bit more pessimistic I can see you’re atleast a reasonable person
Why do you think flipping the house matters? We’re living in a dictatorship.
Because they do have power if they’re willing to use it. It can slow them down. For instance,
They have subpoenas. Make republicans have to spend all their time talking about all the horrible things they’re doing to the floor. Remove all their time to do said horrible things because they’re too busy testifying
If they don’t testify, they can put people in contempt of congress which can be enforced by the Sergeant at Arms. This is something that did happen to Steve Bannon when he refuesed to testify for the Jan 6th committee. Not just a hypothetical power
Chuck Schumer had that power last week. Look how well that turned out. That’s what you’re basing your hopes on?
Actually, no. Democrats have no subpoena power or ability to hold official hearings while in the minority.
I wouldn’t exactly use Steve Bannon as a prime example. It took years for him to see any consequence at all, and he got a bare minimum. He got, what, 4 months? For the amount of money Bannon is making off of riding Trump’s dick, I’d sit in a jail cell for 4 months too.
And I’ll counter your argument with Jim Jordan. Ignored subpoenas. Didn’t even get so much as a censure in the house for ignoring their own subpoena, let alone any form of punishment at all. If you for half a second think a Republican-led House is going to charge a prominent, full-throated MAGA member and chair of the Judiciary Committee with contempt, order his arrest, and have him jailed for non-compliance, I have beachfront property on Mars you may be interested in.
Your rationale goes on the premise that traditional norms and laws still apply. They do not. When the people who are in charge of enforcing those laws and norms are actively telling you that they’re not going to enforce them, those laws aren’t worth the paper they’re printed on.
And the senate would not need to be involved here. All but 1 house dems did vote against it when there was a real chance to stop it (it wasn’t 100% certain that republicans had the vors in the house)
House dems are livid at Schumer. The house has been better at opposing - it’s just that their powers are much more limited while in the minority are more limited compared to the senate.
The context was in flipping the house. They would be in the majority in that scenario
Again the context was flipping the house
even pelosi was angry at shchumer and thats saying something.
Ok and assumming they flip the house what are they going to do? They can do all the hearings and pass out a metric fuckton of subpoenas, what makes you think anyone in this administration listens or shows up? I am pretty sure they did that the first time around, and people shook their fingers and sent very mean letters to no avail.
Whose to say Ttump then doesnt just dismiss congress? Whose gonna fucking stop him?
The Sergeant at Arms is part of the house, not the executive
If Trump tries to illegally dismissing congress, they could just still meet and direct the Sergeant at Arms anyway
Who enforces those subpoenas? Who enforces the contempt charges? Trump is in charge of all of the enforcement mechanisms.
The Sergeant at Arms as I wrote. They are part of congress. They are not part of the executive branch
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contempt_of_Congress
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergeant_at_Arms_of_the_United_States_House_of_Representatives
So, one guy is going to go around arresting top officials of a dictatorship?
Trump is often a paper tiger. He quite often backs down from fights the minute someone pushes back. He’s also been rather willing to throw people under the bus
He’s not yet a dictator as much as he might be trying to make himself one. Most of his power in this moment is from people complying assuming he is. He is a lot weaker in actually getting you to do something if you resist than he wants you to believe. Don’t do his dirty work for him
The fight isn’t over until it’s over
Histrionics aren’t helpful even when they’re factual, let alone when they aren’t.
It’s helpful to point out to people that following established rules doesn’t work when the people in power disregard them with impunity.
There’s not going to be a legal or political uno reverse card that will stop what’s happening. The only established mechanism that still exists to get us out of this is if the military does its duty and protects us from the domestic threat to the constitution.
But, with Trump replacing the joint chiefs and top JAG members, I’m not betting on that happening.
People need to stop living in the fantasy of, “we just have to wait it out for 2-4 years.”